Altec vs Avantgarde

[GM]

>But nonetheless, there is something about Altecs (I don't have experience with other horns) that more closely approximates live music than I've heard elsewhere. I'd call it "presence". The Avantgarde literature says alot of things about dynamics in trying to make the same point. What do you think?

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I call it distortion. I mean they don't even remotely accurately reproduce the signal, adding resonances to the already 'colored' sound intrinsic to an exponentially flared radial 'CD' lens. How anyone can tolerate the 511/811 bell modes is beyond me, it makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it. These can be damped out, as well as some other problems due to poor design/assembly, but when all is said and done, they're not very accurate compared to some other horn designs.

WRT to you describing it as 'presence', sound in a live venue is very 'rich' with reverberant sound, something often lacking in a recording, and just as we prefer 'rich' fatty ice cream, butter, etc., over their 'lean' variants, so too we seem to prefer the harmonic 'richness' of certain tube, horn, vinyl, cab alignments, etc., to fill in (for lack of a better phrase) the 'spaciousness'/dynamic range missing in many (most?) later recordings. And some like it to what I consider extreme excess, hence the flea power SET/vinyl/horn combos, or adding harmonic distortion generators to much more accurate SS/CD systems, or the popularity of certain gross distortion generators marketed under the guise of consumer audio speakers.

All that said, obviously I like, or at least accept, some of their shortcomings and when I still cared about such things, worked around some of the others till I got an acceptable trade off between accuracy and the other performance goals I had. If I were to begin anew though, my horns would be huge three way Unity concepts, though the drivers would still be Altec since I've yet to hear any that sound superior overall, though some are technically superior.

WRT dynamics, the majority of recordings are compressed/limited with clipped transients, so without digital processing, the system in theory only needs to be dynamic 'enough': http://members.aol.com/basconsultants/spkrs.htm

Of course, the greater the dynamic headroom of the system, the lower its distortion levels since it doesn't have to be driven as hard, a worthy goal, so there's no such thing as too much efficiency. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns, but even at ~113dB/4ft I hadn't found it. On uncompressed/unlimited music, the top end 'air' of a very dynamic system does tend to make the reproduction seem more 'live' if the room doesn't damp them out or otherwise ruin its tonal balance, so high directivity while maintaining a vanishingly low distortion and a good power response across the listening area is a must to get the most out of a wide dynamic headroom system.

GM

[GM]

>I would be most curious as to what your intentions are for the 811B, 416-8A etc.. I just completed my boxes with some very excellent help from Dave Fitts and GM. They sound amazing but when do you plan to work on your cabs? Thanks....Lee Batchelor

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Glad you're pleased with them!

Yo, GF! I sent you an email awhile back, but haven't received a response. Did ya'll decide yet on which cab alignment(s) you wanted to try with those Valencia components?

GM

[gonefishin']

Hi Lee

I'm not quite sure when I'm going to get the cabinets started, but I am anxious


In regards to the cabinets I'm going to build? The speakers are going to be for my brother (yep, I got him hooked on HE speakers ) GM has so kindly offered to help me along with the Altec speakers...so I may be traveling down a similar path as you.

Love to see some pics if ya got'em

take care>>>>>>


Hi GM,

Uh Oh. I sent an e-mail response a couple weeks ago...and was just waiting to hear back from you.

I'll send another over to ya>>>>>>>>>


thanks, dan

[GM]

Dan,

Got it.

GM

[Mirrophonic Sound System]

I agree with the point gonefishin' made with respect to the poor transition
from the direct radiator woofer to the midrange on the uno.
I listened carefully to this setup at a show with a high end tube amp.
I wondered why on earth the tube amp manufacturer choose Avantegarde to showcase his amp
given the rude midrange coloration caused by the frequency bump & 1st-order crossover.

At another demo I listened to a factory-supervised demo of
their all-horn system using dual stacked bass horns.
This sounded much more respectable and well integrated but not worth the money of course.
Their bass horn uses a sealed driver that is EQ'd flat with its own amp and coupled
to their high flare-rate horn - not a bad approach and good enough results
but home experimenters can achieve the same or better at a fraction of the cost
using classic American components!

For a look at another all-horn German speaker, check out the picture of the
Siemens/Klangfilm ("cinema sound") 'Bionor' 2-way on page 44 of August Stereophile
(looks like it's inspired by the Altec A4).

[taudo]

> ...though the drivers would still be Altec since I've yet to hear any that sound superior overall, though some are technically superior

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And there you have it. 'Couldn't have said it better myself! It seems that the situation we Altec lovers are in is analogous to what Churchill said about democracy being the worst political system imaginable - with the exception of all the other systems humankind has come up with (apologies for the paraphrase, Mr. Prime Minister!)

It just tickles me to death to have systems that - for $1500-$2000 apiece - will give a good run to some of the most expensive around. At least in the opinion of some (many?)

taudo

[sunnysal]

you hit the nail on the head taudio, the sound you can get from a carefully put together vintage or DIY horn system is superior to production line speakers many time the price!

I am interested in the board?s opinions about which altec drivers and horns ARE to be considered "great"...311-90? 290? 1003b?, regards, tony

[GM]

>I am interested in the board?s opinions about which altec drivers and horns ARE to be considered "great"...311-90? 290? 1003b?, regards, tony
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This is application dependent, so none are truly 'great' per se since they all are compromised in one or more ways. The 511/802-8G comes closest IMO. I consider all the others to be 'extremely competent' for their intended app.

WRT point source drivers, many of them are 'great' in that even with much advanced technology, few of the current drivers 'measure up', and none that I'm aware of are superior overall, though many of course have much higher power handling capability.

Anyway, it's mostly a moot point since 'beauty is in the eye (or ear in this case) of the beholder', so one person's 'great' is another's merely 'competent'.

GM

[taudo]

GM,

Boss, you've got me completely befuddled now. How can you say that the 511/802-8G is the best of an "extremely competent" bunch when in the _Altec vs Avantgarde_ thread you said:

"How anyone can tolerate the 511/811 bell modes is beyond me, it makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it."

Am I missing something?

taudo

[scott fitlin]

Well, since I am here in Brooklyn NY, and since I have always looked at the AG,s in the magazine, and this thread has my curiosity peaked, I am going to go into Manhattan this week, and go hear the AG,s for myself!

That way I can know for sure.